1:10 - 1:45Introduction,
Informal Chat
13:14 TORREY PHILEMON: Although there are only a few of us here, you can still share
a little about the woman/women you chose and maybe why you chose her....
13:14 NEENAH AMARU: Who did you present, Lisam?
13:15 LISAM FURTIVUS: i started out to look at women in athletics. i wanted
to stick to really ancient times
13:15 TORREY PHILEMON: Lisam did ancient women in sports, very unique topic.
13:16 LISAM FURTIVUS: there seems to be very little information. some pieced
together from inscriptions on statues around Mediterranean.
13:16 LISAM FURTIVUS: (i didn't look for Indus or China; might be some records
there.)
13:17 LISAM FURTIVUS: the ancient Olympics seem to have the same situation we do
today. nominally amatuer competitors, really well paid by "their"
cities.
13:17 TORREY PHILEMON: what myths are there about athletic women? I only think of
Atalanta, and maybe the Amazons....
13:18 LISAM FURTIVUS: Atalanta is all i could find, Greek and Roman.
13:18 NEENAH AMARU: Lisam, do you know Rockus Lupus? He has written a book about
ancient women in sports, in RL.....
13:19 LISAM FURTIVUS: nope. what is "in RL"
13:20 NEENAH AMARU: RL=Real Life
13:20 TORREY PHILEMON: real life (you see, cyberspace isn't supposed to be real
- (grin)
13:20 Nimue Cormac enters...
13:20 NEENAH AMARU: He is a professor at Slippery Rock University. Visit his homesite
in Rome; he has webpages there.
13:21 LISAM FURTIVUS: ok. thanks
13:21 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome, Nimue!
13:21 TORREY PHILEMON: (Welcome, Nimue. there are only a few of us here)
13:21 LISAM FURTIVUS: (Slippery Rock University?! is that real life, too?)
13:22 NIMUE CORMAC
: Sorry I'm late.
13:22 TORREY PHILEMON: Neenah, why don't you tell us why you chose Annie Oakley
and Nancy Ward (just glad you showed up Nimue!)
13:22 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, in PA......
13:23 NIMUE
Cormac: Have I missed anything?
13:23 LISAM FURTIVUS: i need to go. thanks everyone for your work!
i'll read through all the pages Sun and Mon.
13:23 Lisam Furtivus exits...
13:24 NEENAH AMARU: I chose Annie because she has always epitomized the modern woman
to me, even though she lived before Women's Rights. She was not afraid
to stand her ground and did well, whatever she put her mind to.
13:25 TORREY PHILEMON: Nimue, Lisam was just talking a little about women in sports
in ancient times.
13:26 NEENAH AMARU: Nancy Ward because she was an inspiring woman who also fought
many odds to do the correct thing even when it seemed hopeless.
13:26 TORREY PHILEMON: There are a number of westerns with Annie Oakley in them,
....one on tv recently in which she is portrayed as a tough fighter, but
very vulnerable in love
13:28 NEENAH AMARU: Many of the movies and TV show are poor depictions, really.
13:29 TORREY PHILEMON: Right, like most movies, especially the old westerns. So
unless you've done some research, all you know is the tv and movie stereotypes....
13:29 NEENAH AMARU: She did adore her husband and always insisted on being Mrs Frank
Butler when she wasn't on 'stage'...
13:30 TORREY PHILEMON: Oh, on tv I didn't see that she was married! Who did she
marry....?
13:30 TORREY PHILEMON: Obviously, Frank Butler (grin), but who was he...?
13:31 NEENAH AMARU: I will admit, my first introduction to her was the old TV show.
But then I went further to find the 'real' Annie.
13:31 NIMUE
Cormac: Was he involved in the show?
13:31 NEENAH AMARU: Frank was also a sharp shooter who did challenges in the towns
he visited. She met his challenge and beat him, that is how they met.....
13:32 TORREY PHILEMON: Ah hah! The woman WINS and gets the guy. Nice theme....
13:32 NIMUE
Cormac: Now thats what I call ro,mance.
13:33 NEENAH AMARU: Frank was not part of the TV program; that was a total fabrication
of her life, unfortunately.
13:33 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, and what is even better is that SHE was the star when they
joined Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show and got top billing!
13:33 TORREY PHILEMON: Nimue, why did you choose Hildegaard of Bingen....?
13:34 NEENAH AMARU: BRB.....
13:34 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
13:35 NIMUE
Cormac: I first heard of Hildegard while reading an herb magazine.
Her interest in medicine was facsinating. Then I heard her music and I
was hooked.
13:35 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Hello ladies. Sorry for the delay, but my phone at
home is dead...and I had to run to the office so I can participate
13:35 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Cornellia, our first official speaker! The few of
us here are just talking about why we chose the woman we chose.
13:36 NIMUE
Cormac: What really impressed me was that in the 12th century this
women was advising kings.
13:36 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I chose Cornelia because she has epitomized the Roman matrona
13:37 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
13:37 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: While living life to the fullest and basically doing what
she wanted to do
13:38 NEENAH AMARU: That's dedication, Cornellia!
13:38 NEENAH AMARU: Nimue, how did you 'hear' her music?
13:38 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Hey....I promised you guys I'd be here!
13:39 TORREY PHILEMON: How do we know what we know about them....about Hildegard
and Cornelia? It never seemed to me that history recorded a lot about women,
except queens....
13:39 NEENAH AMARU: What a woman!!
13:40 NEENAH AMARU: Good question, Torrey! I tried finding some info on Cornellia
for CC and came up with a big "0"!
13:40 NIMUE
Cormac: You can stilll get her songs on CD. They're hard to find, but
worth it if you can. The reason we know about Hildegard is that she avtually
wrote books that are stiill with us.
13:41 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Cornelia was the closest women ever got to deification in
Rome. She even had statues dedicated to her.
13:42 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Polybius and Suetonius wrote about Cornelia, primarily about
her status as the epitome of what a Roman matrona should be.
13:42 NEENAH AMARU: How interesting; I will definitely make time to read about both
of them...
13:43 NEENAH AMARU: That is what is so fantastic about this weekend; we can learn
so much that was unknown to us before....
13:44 TORREY PHILEMON: It's interesting how we each choose women that inspire us,
probably because the women we choose have traits that we want to develop
or are developing....
13:44 caitlin Morna enters...
13:44 TORREY PHILEMON: Or maybe because they were who they are, and were VALIDATED
for it....
13:45 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome, caitlin......
13:45 TORREY PHILEMON: welcome caitlin....
13:45 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I agree this is a great opportunity to learn about the women
in history.
13:45 NEENAH AMARU: I chose mine because they were what I wish I could be.......
13:46 CAITLIN MORNA: Just passing through, ladies...busy day for me..
13:46 NIMUE
Cormac: Hi caitlin
1:45-2:30 Cornellia Cornelius on Cornelia,
Mother of the Gracchis
13:46 TORREY PHILEMON: The time is yours now, Cornellia. On with the show!
13:47 NEENAH AMARU: *getting comfy*
13:48 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
13:48 TORREY PHILEMON: For those who want to take a quick look in another window,
Cornellia's page is at XXX.
13:50 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Cornelia was the mother of the Gracchi's who advocated land
reform in the time of the Republic. They paid for their innovative
thinking with their lives. She bore the death of her sons and husbands
well and continue to patronize the arts
13:52 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I am willing to answer any and all questions or provide
any more details for any of you.
13:53 NEENAH AMARU: I just read that she refused Ptolemy's proposal of marriage
after her husband died to keep his memory alive. How romantic!
13:54 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She chose to remain loyal to Rome and to the memory of her
husband and devote her time to raising the only 3 of her 12 children to
survive.
13:54 TORREY PHILEMON: (Maybe that was a tactful way of covering up the fact that
she didn't like him!)
13:54 NIMUE
Cormac: Was that omance or just protecting her rights as a widow
13:56 TORREY PHILEMON: In a lot of cultures, when women were honored, it was usually
because of what they gave as mothers or wives. Was Cornellia was
also known for her own political role, apart from her sons?
13:56 NIMUE
Cormac: Did the Roman women of this time own their own property?
13:57 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I'd say it was more protecting her rights as a widow.
Roman women fell under the paterfamilias law,,in that they usually had
a man to handle their affairs.
13:58 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Widows (especially those who's father was dead as in Cornelia's
case) fell outside of the law of paterfamilias and therefore had more rights
13:58 NEENAH AMARU: so much for my modern-day romanticism!
13:59 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: They were able to assume many of the roles (outside of actual
politics) that had been assumed by men....I strongly suspect this had more
to do with her decision to never remarrry than any loyalty.
13:59 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Roman women, however, even with a paterfamilias, were allowed
to own and maintain their own property.
14:00 TORREY PHILEMON: So as a widow she could be more openly political than if
she were married.
14:00 lydia Servilius enters...
14:01 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She took a very active behind the scene political role.
Yes Torrey, as a widow, she could be more active than as not.
14:01 NIMUE
Cormac: Do we knowwhat happpened to her daughter? Did she take after
her mother?
14:01 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome lydia....
14:02 NIMUE
Cormac: Hi Lydia. Welcome
14:02 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Her daughter married Africanus the Younger....who was her
mother's cousin by adoption.
14:02 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
14:03 NIMUE
Cormac: But was her daughter at all political?
14:03 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She was suspected of being instrumental in her husband's
death and rumor had it Cornelia helped. Of course, Africanus the
Younger was responsible for the death of at least one of the Gracchi
14:04 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Lydia. Cornellia is discussing Cornelia, mother of
Gracchis....
14:04 lydia Servilius enters...
14:04 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, you alluded to the fact that the children died because
of land reform ideas. What was that about?
14:04 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: No, it doesn't appear that her daughter took as active a
role in politics as her mother. But her daughter was married.
14:05 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Hello, sorry I am late
14:06 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: This was after the Punic wars and there was a great deal
of difference between the haves and have nots. The Patrician (or
noble) families possessed much of the land. The Gracchi's were among
the nobles.
14:07 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: They advocated land reform which would have freed up a good
portion of land for the plebians or less fortunates. The rich were
not about to let that happen.
14:07 NIMUE
Cormac: What was the reform about?
14:07 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: So they began the time honored Roman tradition of killing
one's opponents.
14:07 TORREY PHILEMON: The daughter story sounds like an interesting side melodrama.
Daughter weds (for political reasons?), but husband turns out to be bad
guy who must be eliminated. Movie of the week here.
14:08 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I agree Torrey and am amazed that no one has made a movie
about this.
14:09 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Cornelia's reputation was such that, even though rumor had
it she was involved in the murder, she was quickly absolved of all guilt
14:09 TORREY PHILEMON: Well Cornellia time to write a screenplay (grin!)
14:10 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Sure Torrey...whenever you're ready!
14:11 TORREY PHILEMON: You wrote several times that she was a model of virtue. What
exactly was a model of virtue then anyway?
14:11 TORREY PHILEMON: (time for YOU to write the screenplay)...
14:11 NIMUE
Cormac: Good question.
14:12 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, Torrey, you do ask good questions!
14:12 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She stayed home and tended family and hearth. She
remained true to Rome by not marrying a foreigner. She chose her
children and Rome over her personal interests.
14:13 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Cornelia is it true that Roman women were very limited socially?
14:13 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Unlike other strong Roman women, she chose to be involved
in politics through her sons.
14:15 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Roman women, while enjoying a lot of freedomes not open
to other cultures of this time, were still limited socially. They
were expected to stay home, tend to the home, and their children.
They were expected to be chaperoned when outside of the home, either by
a male family member or a trusted slave.
14:16 NIMUE
Cormac: It was defititely a man's world.
14:17 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I'm doing this off the cuff ladies...my references are at
home.
14:17 TORREY PHILEMON: you're doing great!
14:17 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I would say so! However like Cornellia mentioned,
women still had influence over political issues, via the males in there
life!
14:17 NEENAH AMARU: Your 'cuffs' are fine, CC!
14:17 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Bravo Cornellia!
14:18 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes Nimue, it was....though Roman ladies had more freedoms
than many of their counterparts in the ancient world, it was still a mans
world.
14:18 NIMUE
Cormac: Women have always had that influence if they cared to use it
14:19 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Thanks guys. Cornelia also made sure her children
received the finest education possible and letters exist that indicate
she still maintained a tremendous influence in the political careers of
her sons, right up to the end.
14:20 LYDIA SERVILIUS: And what better way to infuence the world than by shaping
its future leaders!
14:21 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Exactly Lydia and she chose to do that. She made sure
her sons were as well prepared for their roles in the Senate and politics
as was humanly possible in her day.
14:21 TORREY PHILEMON: I wonder who her 20th century counterpart would be....Rose
Kennedy? (was that the mother of the Kennedys?)
14:21 NIMUE
Cormac: Now she wasquite a lady too
14:21 NEENAH AMARU: (yes, it was Torrey)
14:22 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes...exactly. Rose Kennedy is the closest thing we've
seen to it.
14:23 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes Torrey! It is a job greatly underestimated!
UNFORTUNETLY!
14:26 TORREY PHILEMON: I'm imagining a story across time...in which Cornelia was
the guiding spirit of Rose Kennedy, in which somehow or other the stories
of both times are interwoven....
14:26 NEENAH AMARU: What is, lydia? Motherhood?
14:26 Belay Fabius enters...
14:26 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome, Belay!
14:27 NIMUE
Cormac: I think you should start writing that screen play Torry
14:27 Gaia Marius enters...
14:27 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Very aptly put.
14:27 NIMUE
Cormac: Welcome Belay
14:27 TORREY PHILEMON: That's Cornellia's screenplay. She knows the story.
14:28 Belay Fabius exits...
14:28 NIMUE
Cormac: Welcome Gaia
14:28 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I don't do screenplays...
14:28 NEENAH AMARU: Good to see you Gaia.......
14:28 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Gaia. Cornellia's finishing up Cornelia, mother of
Gracchis...
14:29 GAIA MARIUS: Salve, everyone. I'm driving to read the transcript quickly
to be up to speed. I'll listen.
14:29 NEENAH AMARU: Are you all aware that Belay originally came up with the idea
for this Celebration?
14:29 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Any more questions?
14:30 NEENAH AMARU: Cornellia, will you be keeping your pages up after the weekend?
I'm sure many will want to read it.......
14:30 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes Neenah!
14:31 GAIA MARIUS: Sorry I missed Cornellia, Cornellia.
14:31 LYDIA SERVILIUS: No I wasn't aware! Great idea Belay! Thanks
14:31 TORREY PHILEMON: I hope everyone will keep up their pages for many months....
14:31 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes I shall keep them up and hopefully add to them.
And no prolbem Gaia.
14:32 GAIA MARIUS: What about continuing to add to the resource as people have
time and inclination?
14:32 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I surely will! Good idea Gaia!
14:32 NEENAH AMARU: Great idea, Gaia! I'd like to see that happen, myself.....
14:33 TORREY PHILEMON: Well the time here is open till Marie Siduri does Hypatia
at 3:15, then Nimue on Hildegard....I'll be back in 40 minutes...great
job, Cornellia!
14:33 GAIA MARIUS: I think what is so unique is that most of you chose women I'd
never heard of and it was so interesting learning about these women
14:33 NEENAH AMARU: This is a worthy project that should expand......
14:34 GAIA MARIUS: There were tons of resources for Catherine, but if my daughter
wanted to explore something more original....
14:34 NEENAH AMARU: That is true, Gaia. I agree. So much to learn.......
14:34 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Thank you Torrey and all of you.
14:34 GAIA MARIUS: Thanks cornellia
14:35 NEENAH AMARU: Thank You, Cornellia! Great Job!!
14:35 NEENAH AMARU: I must leave for a bit as well. The Fab Bib discussion will
be starting at 3 and I promised myself to be there. I will return....
14:36 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Now ladies...I must head to Tara...*sigh*
14:36 GAIA MARIUS: Bye you guys.
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