Celebration of Women Saturday Jan. 9, 1999
Chat Transcript, Page One
Introduction and Cornellia Cornelius
on Cornelia, Mother of the Gracchis

Celebration of Women Chat Transcripts
Celebration of Women Schedule and Link Page
Note: Since Ancient Sites folded, most of these transcripts are no longer available.
See links below for those which are still on the Web
Saturday January 9th Sunday January 10
Informal Introduction Informal Pre-Chat
Cornellia Cornelius on Cornelia,
Mother of the Gracchis
Gaia Marius on 
Catherine the Great
Marie Siduri on Hypatia Neenah Amaru on Annie Oakley
Nimue Cormac 
on Hildegard of Bingen
Torrey Philemon 
on Queen of Sheba
Informal Post-Chat Ninian Cuchulainn on Sacajawea
  Finale Chat
Tuesday January 12  
bodacca morna 
on Kateri Tekakwitha
 Thursday January 14
Lia Niall on Julian of Norwich MP Seminar - Tika Yupanqui 
Becoming Woman: Apache 
Female Puberty Ceremonies


1:10 - 1:45Introduction, Informal Chat 
13:14 TORREY PHILEMON: Although there are only a few of us here, you can still share a little about the woman/women you chose and maybe why you chose her....
13:14 NEENAH AMARU: Who did you present, Lisam?
13:15 LISAM FURTIVUS: i started out to look at women in athletics.  i wanted to stick to really ancient times
13:15 TORREY PHILEMON: Lisam did ancient women in sports, very unique topic.
13:16 LISAM FURTIVUS: there seems to be very little information.  some pieced together from inscriptions on statues around Mediterranean.
13:16 LISAM FURTIVUS: (i didn't look for Indus or China; might be some records there.)
13:17 LISAM FURTIVUS: the ancient Olympics seem to have the same situation we do today.  nominally amatuer competitors, really well paid by "their" cities.
13:17 TORREY PHILEMON: what myths are there about athletic women? I only think of Atalanta, and maybe the Amazons....
13:18 LISAM FURTIVUS: Atalanta is all i could find, Greek and Roman.
13:18 NEENAH AMARU: Lisam, do you know Rockus Lupus? He has written a book about ancient women in sports, in RL.....
13:19 LISAM FURTIVUS: nope.  what is "in RL"
13:20 NEENAH AMARU: RL=Real Life
13:20 TORREY PHILEMON: real life (you see, cyberspace isn't supposed to be real - (grin)
13:20 Nimue Cormac enters...
13:20 NEENAH AMARU: He is a professor at Slippery Rock University. Visit his homesite in Rome; he has webpages there.
13:21 LISAM FURTIVUS: ok.  thanks
13:21 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome, Nimue!
13:21 TORREY PHILEMON: (Welcome, Nimue. there are only a few of us here)
13:21 LISAM FURTIVUS: (Slippery Rock University?!  is that real life, too?)
13:22 NIMUE CORMAC : Sorry I'm late.
13:22 TORREY PHILEMON: Neenah, why don't you tell us why you chose Annie Oakley and Nancy Ward (just glad you showed up Nimue!)
13:22 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, in PA......
13:23 NIMUE Cormac: Have I missed anything?
13:23 LISAM FURTIVUS: i need to go.  thanks everyone for your work!  i'll read through all the pages Sun and Mon.
13:23 Lisam Furtivus exits...
13:24 NEENAH AMARU: I chose Annie because she has always epitomized the modern woman to me, even though she lived before Women's Rights. She was not afraid to stand her ground and did well, whatever she put her mind to.
13:25 TORREY PHILEMON: Nimue, Lisam was just talking a little about women in sports in ancient times.
13:26 NEENAH AMARU: Nancy Ward because she was an inspiring woman who also fought many odds to do the correct thing even when it seemed hopeless.
13:26 TORREY PHILEMON: There are a number of westerns with Annie Oakley in them, ....one on tv recently in which she is portrayed as a tough fighter, but very vulnerable in love
13:28 NEENAH AMARU: Many of the movies and TV show are poor depictions, really. 
13:29 TORREY PHILEMON: Right, like most movies, especially the old westerns. So unless you've done some research, all you know is the tv and movie stereotypes....
13:29 NEENAH AMARU: She did adore her husband and always insisted on being Mrs Frank Butler when she wasn't on 'stage'...
13:30 TORREY PHILEMON: Oh, on tv I didn't see that she was married! Who did she marry....?
13:30 TORREY PHILEMON: Obviously, Frank Butler (grin), but who was he...?
13:31 NEENAH AMARU: I will admit, my first introduction to her was the old TV show. But then I went further to find the 'real' Annie.
13:31 NIMUE Cormac: Was he involved in the show?
13:31 NEENAH AMARU: Frank was also a sharp shooter who did challenges in the towns he visited. She met his challenge and beat him, that is how they met.....
13:32 TORREY PHILEMON: Ah hah! The woman WINS and gets the guy. Nice theme....
13:32 NIMUE Cormac: Now thats what I call ro,mance.
13:33 NEENAH AMARU: Frank was not part of the TV program; that was a total fabrication of her life, unfortunately.
13:33 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, and what is even better is that SHE was the star when they joined Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show and got top billing!
13:33 TORREY PHILEMON: Nimue, why did you choose Hildegaard of Bingen....?
13:34 NEENAH AMARU: BRB.....
13:34 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
13:35 NIMUE Cormac: I first heard of Hildegard while reading an herb magazine. Her interest in medicine was facsinating. Then I heard her music and I was hooked.
13:35 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Hello ladies.  Sorry for the delay, but my phone at home is dead...and I had to run to the office so I can participate
13:35 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Cornellia, our first official speaker! The few of us here are just talking about why we chose the woman we chose.
13:36 NIMUE Cormac: What really impressed me was that in the 12th century this women was advising kings.
13:36 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I chose Cornelia because she has epitomized the Roman matrona
13:37 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
13:37 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: While living life to the fullest and basically doing what she wanted to do
13:38 NEENAH AMARU: That's dedication, Cornellia!
13:38 NEENAH AMARU: Nimue, how did you 'hear' her music?
13:38 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Hey....I promised you guys I'd be here!
13:39 TORREY PHILEMON: How do we know what we know about them....about Hildegard and Cornelia? It never seemed to me that history recorded a lot about women, except queens....
13:39 NEENAH AMARU: What a woman!!
13:40 NEENAH AMARU: Good question, Torrey! I tried finding some info on Cornellia for CC and came up with a big "0"!
13:40 NIMUE Cormac: You can stilll get her songs on CD. They're hard to find, but worth it if you can. The reason we know about Hildegard is that she avtually wrote books that are stiill with us.
13:41 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Cornelia was the closest women ever got to deification in Rome.  She even had statues dedicated to her. 
13:42 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Polybius and Suetonius wrote about Cornelia, primarily about her status as the epitome of what a Roman matrona should be.
13:42 NEENAH AMARU: How interesting; I will definitely make time to read about both of them...
13:43 NEENAH AMARU: That is what is so fantastic about this weekend; we can learn so much that was unknown to us before....
13:44 TORREY PHILEMON: It's interesting how we each choose women that inspire us, probably because the women we choose have traits that we want to develop or are developing....
13:44 caitlin Morna enters...
13:44 TORREY PHILEMON: Or maybe because they were who they are, and were VALIDATED for it....
13:45 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome, caitlin......
13:45 TORREY PHILEMON: welcome caitlin....
13:45 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I agree this is a great opportunity to learn about the women in history.
13:45 NEENAH AMARU: I chose mine because they were what I wish I could be.......
13:46 CAITLIN MORNA: Just passing through, ladies...busy day for me..
13:46 NIMUE Cormac: Hi caitlin

1:45-2:30 Cornellia Cornelius on Cornelia, Mother of the Gracchis

13:46 TORREY PHILEMON: The time is yours now, Cornellia. On with the show!
13:47 NEENAH AMARU: *getting comfy*
13:48 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
13:48 TORREY PHILEMON: For those who want to take a quick look in another window, Cornellia's page is at XXX.
13:50 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Cornelia was the mother of the Gracchi's who advocated land reform in the time of the Republic.  They paid for their innovative thinking with their lives.  She bore the death of her sons and husbands well and continue to patronize the arts
13:52 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I am willing to answer any and all questions or provide any more details for any of you.
13:53 NEENAH AMARU: I just read that she refused Ptolemy's proposal of marriage after her husband died to keep his memory alive. How romantic!
13:54 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She chose to remain loyal to Rome and to the memory of her husband and devote her time to raising the only 3 of her 12 children to survive.
13:54 TORREY PHILEMON: (Maybe that was a tactful way of covering up the fact that she didn't like him!)
13:54 NIMUE Cormac: Was that omance or just protecting her rights as a widow
13:56 TORREY PHILEMON: In a lot of cultures, when women were honored, it was usually because of what they gave as mothers or wives.  Was Cornellia was also known for her own political role, apart from her sons?
13:56 NIMUE Cormac: Did the Roman women of this time own their own property?
13:57 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I'd say it was more protecting her rights as a widow.  Roman women fell under the paterfamilias law,,in that they usually had a man to handle their affairs.
13:58 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Widows (especially those who's father was dead as in Cornelia's case) fell outside of the law of paterfamilias and therefore had more rights
13:58 NEENAH AMARU: so much for my modern-day romanticism!
13:59 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: They were able to assume many of the roles (outside of actual politics) that had been assumed by men....I strongly suspect this had more to do with her decision to never remarrry than any loyalty.
13:59 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Roman women, however, even with a paterfamilias, were allowed to own and maintain their own property.
14:00 TORREY PHILEMON: So as a widow she could be more openly political than if she were married.
14:00 lydia Servilius enters...
14:01 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She took a very active behind the scene political role.   Yes Torrey, as a widow, she could be more active than as not.
14:01 NIMUE Cormac: Do we knowwhat happpened to her daughter? Did she take after her mother?
14:01 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome lydia....
14:02 NIMUE Cormac: Hi Lydia. Welcome
14:02 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Her daughter married Africanus the Younger....who was her mother's cousin by adoption. 
14:02 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
14:03 NIMUE Cormac: But was her daughter at all political?
14:03 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She was suspected of being instrumental in her husband's death and rumor had it Cornelia helped.  Of course, Africanus the Younger was responsible for the death of at least one of the Gracchi
14:04 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Lydia. Cornellia is discussing Cornelia, mother of Gracchis....
14:04 lydia Servilius enters...
14:04 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, you alluded to the fact that the children died because of land reform ideas. What was that about?
14:04 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: No, it doesn't appear that her daughter took as active a role in politics as her mother.  But her daughter was married.
14:05 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Hello, sorry I am late
14:06 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: This was after the Punic wars and there was a great deal of difference between the haves and have nots.  The Patrician (or noble) families possessed much of the land.  The Gracchi's were among the nobles.
14:07 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: They advocated land reform which would have freed up a good portion of land for the plebians or less fortunates.  The rich were not about to let that happen.
14:07 NIMUE Cormac: What was the reform about?
14:07 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: So they began the time honored Roman tradition of killing one's opponents.
14:07 TORREY PHILEMON: The daughter story sounds like an interesting side melodrama. Daughter weds (for political reasons?), but husband turns out to be bad guy who must be eliminated. Movie of the week here.
14:08 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I agree Torrey and am amazed that no one has made a movie about this.
14:09 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Cornelia's reputation was such that, even though rumor had it she was involved in the murder, she was quickly absolved of all guilt
14:09 TORREY PHILEMON: Well Cornellia time to write a screenplay (grin!)
14:10 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Sure Torrey...whenever you're ready!
14:11 TORREY PHILEMON: You wrote several times that she was a model of virtue. What exactly was a model of virtue then anyway?
14:11 TORREY PHILEMON: (time for YOU to write the screenplay)...
14:11 NIMUE Cormac: Good question.
14:12 NEENAH AMARU: Yes, Torrey, you do ask good questions!
14:12 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She stayed home and tended family and hearth.  She remained true to Rome by not marrying a foreigner.  She chose her children and Rome over her personal interests.
14:13 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Cornelia is it true that Roman women were very limited socially?
14:13 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Unlike other strong Roman women, she chose to be involved in politics through her sons.
14:15 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Roman women, while enjoying a lot of freedomes not open to other cultures of this time, were still limited socially.  They were expected to stay home, tend to the home, and their children.  They were expected to be chaperoned when outside of the home, either by a male family member or a trusted slave.
14:16 NIMUE Cormac: It was defititely a man's world.
14:17 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I'm doing this off the cuff ladies...my references are at home.
14:17 TORREY PHILEMON: you're doing great!
14:17 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I would say so!  However like Cornellia mentioned, women still had influence over political issues, via the males in there life!
14:17 NEENAH AMARU: Your 'cuffs' are fine, CC!
14:17 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Bravo Cornellia!
14:18 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes Nimue, it was....though Roman ladies had more freedoms than many of their counterparts in the ancient world, it was still a mans world.
14:18 NIMUE Cormac: Women have always had that influence if they cared to use it
14:19 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Thanks guys.  Cornelia also made sure her children received the finest education possible and letters exist that indicate she still maintained a tremendous influence in the political careers of her sons, right up to the end.
14:20 LYDIA SERVILIUS: And what better way to infuence the world than by shaping its future leaders!
14:21 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Exactly Lydia and she chose to do that.  She made sure her sons were as well prepared for their roles in the Senate and politics as was humanly possible in her day.
14:21 TORREY PHILEMON: I wonder who her 20th century counterpart would be....Rose Kennedy? (was that the mother of the Kennedys?)
14:21 NIMUE Cormac: Now she wasquite a lady too
14:21 NEENAH AMARU: (yes, it was Torrey)
14:22 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes...exactly.  Rose Kennedy is the closest thing we've seen to it.
14:23 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes Torrey!  It is a job greatly underestimated!  UNFORTUNETLY!
14:26 TORREY PHILEMON: I'm imagining a story across time...in which Cornelia was the guiding spirit of Rose Kennedy, in which somehow or other the stories of both times are interwoven....
14:26 NEENAH AMARU: What is, lydia? Motherhood?
14:26 Belay Fabius enters...
14:26 NEENAH AMARU: Welcome, Belay!
14:27 NIMUE Cormac: I think you should start writing that screen play Torry
14:27 Gaia Marius enters...
14:27 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Very aptly put.
14:27 NIMUE Cormac: Welcome Belay
14:27 TORREY PHILEMON: That's Cornellia's screenplay. She knows the story.
14:28 Belay Fabius exits...
14:28 NIMUE Cormac: Welcome Gaia
14:28 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I don't do screenplays...
14:28 NEENAH AMARU: Good to see you Gaia.......
14:28 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Gaia. Cornellia's finishing up Cornelia, mother of Gracchis...
14:29 GAIA MARIUS: Salve, everyone.  I'm driving to read the transcript quickly to be up to speed.  I'll listen.
14:29 NEENAH AMARU: Are you all aware that Belay originally came up with the idea for this Celebration?
14:29 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Any more questions?
14:30 NEENAH AMARU: Cornellia, will you be keeping your pages up after the weekend? I'm sure many will want to read it.......
14:30 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes Neenah! 
14:31 GAIA MARIUS: Sorry I missed Cornellia, Cornellia. 
14:31 LYDIA SERVILIUS: No I wasn't aware!  Great idea Belay!  Thanks
14:31 TORREY PHILEMON: I hope everyone will keep up their pages for many months....
14:31 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes I shall keep them up and hopefully add to them.  And no prolbem Gaia.
14:32 GAIA MARIUS: What about continuing to add to the resource as people have time and inclination?
14:32 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I surely will!  Good idea Gaia!
14:32 NEENAH AMARU: Great idea, Gaia! I'd like to see that happen, myself.....
14:33 TORREY PHILEMON: Well the time here is open till Marie Siduri does Hypatia at 3:15, then Nimue on Hildegard....I'll be back in 40 minutes...great job, Cornellia!
14:33 GAIA MARIUS: I think what is so unique is that most of you chose women I'd never heard of and it was so interesting learning about these women
14:33 NEENAH AMARU: This is a worthy project that should expand......
14:34 GAIA MARIUS: There were tons of resources for Catherine, but if my daughter wanted to explore something more original....
14:34 NEENAH AMARU: That is true, Gaia. I agree. So much to learn.......
14:34 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Thank you Torrey and all of you.
14:34 GAIA MARIUS: Thanks cornellia
14:35 NEENAH AMARU: Thank You, Cornellia! Great Job!!
14:35 NEENAH AMARU: I must leave for a bit as well. The Fab Bib discussion will be starting at 3 and I promised myself to be there. I will return....
14:36 CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Now ladies...I must head to Tara...*sigh*
14:36 GAIA MARIUS: Bye you guys.