Lysistrata by Euripides Online Chat

Online Discussions of the Greek Classics - Tragedies by Euripides and Aeschylus and Comedies by Aristophanes - Readings translated from the Greek - With previous Members of Ancient Sites Community

CONTINUED FROM previous page

22:44 - Myrrhine Philemon
       the introduction to my copy of the play says that what Aristophanes was trying to achieve was a comment on how war needs to be resolved with the honour of both sides in tact
22:44 - Torrey Philemon
       I can't help but believe that there must have been some sexual excitement between some husbands and wives or Aristophanes would never have written such a satire.
22:45 - ZoeXanthippos
       A lot of the play seems to me to be a comment on the longevity of this war and a plea for peace. Aristophanes addressed the peace desire in other plays too
22:45 - Torrey Philemon
       Wouldn't you think - if wives weren't available sexually, that the men would NOT be sex-deprived but would have other outlets.......? So perhaps Aristophanes is suggesting that their wives WERE indeed important to them.....
22:46 - Torrey Philemon
       It's interesting how he combined such high satire/comedy with such a serious plea for peace, Zoe
22:46 - ZoeXanthippos
       My first impression of this play a long time ago was that there must have been either some fear of women running things or that they actually did in it subtle ways. It wasn't entirely fantasy
22:46 - Torrey Philemon
       Throughout history men have always been afraid of women's power (beginning with their mother's power!)
22:47 - ZoeXanthippos
       The men's complaints weren't only the lack of sex but no one to cook and clean and take care of the kids
22:47 - Torrey Philemon
       The Reeder video talks about two concepts of women - woman the nurturing vessel who men need, and woman as wild animal who men fear and wish to control.
22:47 - Myrrhine Philemon
       this from Sommerstein - "Acharnians" is an appeal for peace, "Peace" is a celebration of peace, "Lysistrata" is a dream about peace.
22:48 - Torrey Philemon
       I agree Myrrhine that the primary purpose of the play was a plea for peace. Interesting how in the end Aristophanes even has a naked woman named Peace to bring together the two themes.
22:49 - ZoeXanthippos
       There was a whole speech on p. 436 by the chorus of men "no fire can match, no beast can best her"
22:50 - ZoeXanthippos
       the Anon. translation puts is as "the leopard is less savage and shameless"
22:50 - Myrrhine Philemon
       I find it interesting that Lysistrata tells the magistrate that her power lies in her intellect *g* she basically tells the council of 10 and the magistrate that it is brains that is going to get them out of the mess they are in
22:50 - Torrey Philemon
       Do you know Greek well, Myrrhine? Supposedly there were a lot of puns in ancient Greek that were untranslatable in English. Parker said he made up some puns in English to create a similar effect.
22:51 - ZoeXanthippos
       And while Lys. is trying to reason with the men on a serious subject, they're groping Peace.
22:51 - Myrrhine Philemon
       Not very well Torrey ... I only learned the very basics and I have never read the plays in the original greek :(
22:51 - Torrey Philemon
       Interesting, sex and war are equated (phallus, swords) then at the end sex and peace are equated.
22:52 - ZoeXanthippos
       Maybe men and women equate marital relations as a war...
22:53 - Torrey Philemon
       And also in a sense, Lys and her cronies did wage war against the men.
22:55 - Torrey Philemon
       I wonder how Greek women would have reacted if they could have seen the play. What do you think?
22:56 - ZoeXanthippos
       I think they would have enjoyed knowing that they were considered to be a threat, even in a comedy
22:56 - Myrrhine Philemon
       ooh that's a curly question ... I wonder if they might have been offended by it or seen it as an opportunity to tell their men what they thought for a change ...
22:58 - Torrey Philemon
       At first the women were portrayed as caring only about how they looked and the clothes they wore and sex......and not wanting to have anything to do with politics!
22:58 - ZoeXanthippos
       There are a number of references to women coercing men into doing whatever they wanted through sexual means. Women have always done this and I think women know they can do this
22:58 - Myrrhine Philemon
       or perhaps they would simply laugh along with it ...
22:58 - Torrey Philemon
       And given that men are afraid of women's sexual power, Aristophanes probably wanted to weaken that power by using comedy to make fun of it.
22:59 - ZoeXanthippos
       The underlying message was that men didn't want to admit how much power the women really had. Not a public power, but an influencing power
23:00 - Torrey Philemon
       (I can't help but think that if women were in charge we wouldn't be dealing with such terrible US/Alcaida Israel/Palesine India/Pakistan conflicts!
23:00 - ZoeXanthippos
       I have to agree with you there Torrey
23:00 - Torrey Philemon
       Yet Zoe in a way Aristophanes did admit and acknowledge women's power in writing Lysistrata, didn't he!
23:02 - Myrrhine Philemon
       well ladies I'm afraid I need to leave you ... this has been a good chat though
23:02 - Torrey Philemon
       I read some background on the Peloponnesian Wars but have some difficulty understanding what motivated the war effort and what Athens was fighting for. My impression is primarily that Sparta was on the offense and had the greater military strength and that the Athenians were primarily defending themselves. But there were some who were warmongers (interestingly enough the Democrats).
23:02 - Torrey Philemon
       ah Myrrhine, sorry you have to go!
23:02 - ZoeXanthippos
       I'm so glad you could join us Myrrhine!
23:03 - Torrey Philemon
       Perhaps we all can have other chats in the future - find some plays that interest us......
23:03 - Myrrhine Philemon
       Me too, but unfortunately the day is getting away from me *sigh* With luck next time I will be able to stay longer *smiles*
23:03 - Torrey Philemon
       Email us if there are other readings you'd like to chat about, Myrrhine.
23:04 - Myrrhine Philemon
       I will do that Torrey *smiles* g'night to both of you!
23:04 - Torrey Philemon
       Zoe, do you want to stay a bit longer?
23:05 - ZoeXanthippos
       Re the wars: I got started on a history and didn't finish but in order to fight the Persians, Athens got a bunch of the other city states to join them and put up money to fund wars and defense. This was kept and Delos for a while and when that got unsafe, moved to Athens. Long after that threat was over the other states still had to pay up ans Athens had become used to having the money. Sparta never participated and little by little, some of the other city states rebelled against these payments and Athens meddling about in their business. That's about as far as I got
23:06 - Torrey Philemon
       What kind of Greek study/ ancient Greek culture study have you been doing the past 9 months?
23:07 - Torrey Philemon
       Sounds like the the war was mostly against Sparta by this time, not Persia. And I read too that many city-states rebelled against the Athenian taxes and joined the Spartans or Persians.
23:07 - ZoeXanthippos
       I've been reading around in the women in Greece books I have and some in mythology. I actually got off on women in WWI after the events of Sept. I'm not sure what I'm after there but it seems right
23:08 - Torrey Philemon
       I've started reading women in Greece books too. Which do you recommend? (yes 9-11 distracted us all. I even took a course in Islam last term and studied Islamic women for many months)
23:10 - Torrey Philemon
       Which online community are you most active in now? (Did you join the new Ancient Sites?)
23:11 - ZoeXanthippos
       Trying to think of what you've mentioned....Courtesans and Fishcakes is good, Blundell, Women in Greece, the Pomeroy we've referred to here, Women in the Classical World by a group and a new one I have called Women's Life in Greece and Rome - Lefkowitz and Fant which uses citations from literature
23:12 - Torrey Philemon
       Ah yes I meant to get Courtesans and Fishcakes. I've heard it's good. And I did read Lefkowitz a long time ago. There are a few good articles in Women in the Ancient World: The Arethusa Papers which I've read, and I also have one I haven't yet read called something like Sexual Politics in Ancient Athens. I'll look up the others you mentioned at
23:13 - ZoeXanthippos
       I am most active at Panhistoria. I also am involved at ATWAS/MOFA and I participate in one discussion at Ancient Times. I signed onto AW for the torch lighting and watched and shed the tiny tear at the lighting but I've already committed myself at the new places and I can't do everything.
23:13 - Torrey Philemon
       What kind of activities are you involved in at Panhistoria and ATWAS/MOFA (what's MOFA?)?
23:13 - ZoeXanthippos
       The day after the Grand Lighting, the members were sniping away at each other already. If I want to fight I don't need to use my computer *g*
23:15 - Torrey Philemon
       What was the Grand Lighting?
23:15 - ZoeXanthippos
       MOFA is the old Museum of Fine Art from AS, a group of Athens. At ATWAS I somehow became comoderator in the Ancient Greece Forum and I got shanghaied into playing with my friends at Daedalidai - perhaps you remember that very active deme.
23:17 - Torrey Philemon
       (Is this the WOmen in the Classical World book you mentioned --
23:17 - ZoeXanthippos
       The lighting was a weeks worth of torch races culminating in the animated flame coming back into the old AS brazier. The torch races involved various people posting about the places they passed on their segment of it. From Babylonian sites through Egypt etc
23:17 - Torrey Philemon
       It's my impression that the clones of AS are mostly about roleplaying, not serious discussion. Or is there some serious discussion and study going on?
23:17 - ZoeXanthippos
       yes, that's exactly the book
23:18 - ZoeXanthippos
       rats, why did it dump the whole chat on me?
23:18 - ZoeXanthippos
       ATWAS is more RP than not though the serious voices are around. MOFA is serious.
23:19 - Torrey Philemon
       Which book that you read do you most recommend?... Is MOFA entirely about Art?
23:19 - ZoeXanthippos
       Pan is both. It only looks like there is only RP. There are a number of serious members and areas set up for only NF posting.
23:20 - ZoeXanthippos
       I recommend the Pomeroy you've already got and fishcakes for color and the new one I mentioned for a jumping off place for further looking
23:20 - Torrey Philemon
       One of my own aims has been to take my ancient Greek/myth interest offline and make it happen more in real life. So far I've started least as far as teaching myth for 6 months now. ANd next week I start studying ancient Greek with a tutor. But I'd really like to find or create a real life study/book discussion group of people with similar interests.
23:21 - ZoeXanthippos
       yes, MOFa is all art, not only old art but our own, those of us who can. I'll send you a couple of links to some of our 'shows'
23:21 - ZoeXanthippos
       I'm really glad you're class was a success
23:22 - Torrey Philemon
       A semi-success. I guess I wanted students to have a similar passion and not just idle curiosity. There's a lot of idle curiosity!
23:22 - ZoeXanthippos
       not only that but our own paintings, photography, whatever people do, we have a gallery
23:22 - Torrey Philemon
       Not related to classical themes, but about anything?
23:22 - ZoeXanthippos
       idle curiousity in the one right person can develop into a passion.
23:23 - ZoeXanthippos
       Back to Pan. There is a Reference Library section in which people post much as they did at AS, along with Reference books that are similar to the special interest groups.
23:24 - ZoeXanthippos
       yes, any period of art
23:24 - Torrey Philemon
       I think I"m scared of being devoured any more by my computer than I am now (selling my photography 20 hours a week at Ebay)......So in a way the demise of AS forced me to start to create more connection offline.
23:24 - ZoeXanthippos
       why on earth do I keep putting apostrophes in everything? I think the keyboard is doing this to make me look illiterate
23:25 - Torrey Philemon
       I don't see the apostrophes
23:25 - Torrey Philemon
       Do you have a desire to read/chat about any other Greek plays or classics, Zoe?
23:26 - ZoeXanthippos
       Oh well, it only bothers me, that's good. You sound like you're feeling healthier now too, that's great!
23:26 - Torrey Philemon
       Or the topic of transition from matriarchy/matrilineal to patriarchy which we were going to discuss last year.
23:26 - Torrey Philemon
       I wish Morgana wanted to be involved occasionally. She said she was considering showing up tonight but she hadn't read Lys.
23:27 - ZoeXanthippos
       Yes, let's do more Aristophanes. I like The Birds a lot too. It made me laugh and I have an odd sense of humor so it must be funny
23:27 - Torrey Philemon
       Sounds good! I'd like to do another Aristophanes play,esp. since i have the four plays Arrowsmith book. Shall we do the Birds in another month? Know anyone who might be interested?
23:28 - Torrey Philemon
       Maybe you could spread the word.....or spread the words about the Birds (bad rhyme!)..
23:29 - ZoeXanthippos
       oh, I forgot. Steven Pressfield has a new novel about the Amazons out now - he did Gates of Fire and the other one, I forget it's title
23:29 - Torrey Philemon
       I forget the plot of the Birds (haven't read it yet). That's not the one about Socrates is it (is that the Clouds?)
23:29 - Torrey Philemon
       Oh really, I'd like to read more on the Amazons. Have you read the novel?
23:29 - ZoeXanthippos
       and the martrilineal thing I have done more reading around in also, but I can't think what at the moment, it was last fall
23:30 - ZoeXanthippos
       no, its ordered, I don't have it yet
23:30 - ZoeXanthippos
       Clouds is Socrates I think, Birds is politics and it is very applicable to today, or it was when I read it
23:31 - ZoeXanthippos
       Okay, then, we do The Birds next. Pick your day and I'll show up
23:31 - Torrey Philemon
       Oh good, I want to read the one that's most applicable today....I know there's also some material online about it too.
23:32 - Torrey Philemon
       I'll email you. Will check with Myrrhine and see if she's interested. She needs a weekend time because of Australia.
23:32 - ZoeXanthippos
       And I do miss Morgana here as well. I hope we can entice her back, it's not like dealing with a whole site full of stuff
23:32 - Torrey Philemon
       Maybe we can twist Morgana's "index finger" <-:
23:33 - ZoeXanthippos
       shall we bombard her with begging spam-mail? *g*
23:33 - Torrey Philemon
       Let's both email her and put on the pressure. Tell her we women need to organize and get away from the war of the worlds!
23:33 - ZoeXanthippos
       that sounds like a plan to me!
23:34 - ZoeXanthippos
       Send her the transcript link from tonight.
23:34 - Torrey Philemon
       I'll see if there's anyone else I can interest. Maybe even one of my students (current myth class ends next week and there's only 5 women in it, but next myth class starts in 2 weeks)
23:34 - ZoeXanthippos
       *Hi Morgana! Wish you were here!*
23:34 - Torrey Philemon
       Yes, it's great that this site provides transcripts. If you know anyone who wants to join by the way have them contact me because I have to set them up with a user identity here
23:35 - Torrey Philemon
       We can tell her we know we would have had a much more enjoyable risque talk with her presence!
23:35 - ZoeXanthippos
       I will do that. I had one person in mind but she's shy and thinks she doesn;t know anything. Perhaps a link to the transcript would convince her that we're not geniuses (or I'm not anyway, you may be *s*)
23:36 - Torrey Philemon
       Maybe I can post a note at the Reader's Place too (haven't been back there since last fall)
23:36 - Torrey Philemon
       No, I don't see any geniuses here!
23:36 - ZoeXanthippos
       Yes, we didn't get very low did we? I wasn't sure what I'd be getting into here
23:36 - ZoeXanthippos
       The readers place is not at COm Zero any more. They've their own site now, I'll send it along
23:37 - ZoeXanthippos
       I don't go much, can't get to it
23:37 - Torrey Philemon
       No, we could have been a lot more raunchy! I think we needed Morgana and a few glasses of wine! Too bad Richard left early - I told him that with his presence we could act out the Lysistrata with men and women.........(oh let me know where Readers Place moved)
23:38 - Torrey Philemon
       Well it's great chatting with you again Zoe. I'll be in touch with you about the Birds (is there any myth in it?)
23:38 - ZoeXanthippos
       and I was thinking my harping on the phallusses was running him off LOL!
23:39 - ZoeXanthippos
       I don't remember any myth parts, but that doesn't mean they're not there. I've also enjoyed this Torrey. Lets keep up with our discussions.
23:39 - Torrey Philemon
       No actually I think he wanting some raunchiness! He has a women's online chat in his novel and I think he wanted to hear some hot women talk <-:
23:40 - Torrey Philemon
       Just glanced at my calendar and I teach most Fridays in July.....if Myrrhine is interested we'll have to do Saturday night. But I"ll email her and see.
23:40 - ZoeXanthippos
       oh dear, he should have waited. I'd only had one beer when we started.
23:40 - Torrey Philemon
       Will be in touch soon. Have a great weekend! (yeah I didn't even get started on my whiskey bottle <-: )
23:40 - Torrey Philemon
23:40 - ZoeXanthippos
       I have no idea what I'm doing in July. One night is usually as good as another, as long as I know in advance
23:41 - ZoeXanthippos
       Have a drink on me! Cheers! (and goodnight, my friend *s*)
23:41 - Torrey Philemon
       Logging out.....
23:42 - ZoeXanthippos
       Now. Have I had my famous Last Word? Yes, I believe I have upheld the tradition. Adieu!