NOTE: During 1998-1999, several dozen of the women of Ancient Sites Community, which folded in 2000, created web sites about women in history who inspired them, and led online chats at two Celebration of Women events, organized and moderated by Torrey Philemon of Ancient Sites Athens (also known as Tika Yupanqui of Macchu Picchu, and Tracy Marks in real life). Tracy has posted a few of these chats here, although most of the web pages, and all Ancient Sites links, no longer exist. This was a grand and pioneering event, worth preserving! Tracy has also preserved online many of her Ancient Sites Greek mythology articles and two years worth of transcripts from Greek classics and mythology chats. They are now located HERE
Catherine of Sienna by Myrrhine Philemon
16:57 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: i'll start by saying that I'm not a Roman Catholic, so if I make any theological errors, please bear with me ... I'm going to try and stay away from in depth religious discussion of Catherines life though
16:57 TARA RAMESSES: oh, thats fine....
16:58 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I chose Catherine because after studying Medieval history, she seemed to stand out as an incredibly influential figue
16:58 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I'll start with a little background ...
17:00 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: She was born on the 25 march 1347 as Catherine Benincasa ... daugher of a wool dyer - basically a middle class family
17:01 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: At the age of 6 she had her first mystical experience in which she say guardian angels. It is believed that from this age she determined her vocation
17:02 TARA RAMESSES: was she an only child?
17:03 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: no, she came from a reasonably large family ... several brothers and sisters. In fact she was a twin, the other child did not survive
17:04 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Her devotion caused some conflict in the family... her mother wanted her to marry and help improve the social standing of the family
17:06 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: in response to this, catherine cut off her hair and insisted on undertaking menial tasks around the home as she was not permitted solitude for prayer
17:07 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: it was her father that gave in and allowed her a room in the house in which she practically locked herself and embracing the ascetic life or self flagelation, fasting and general discomfort
17:09 Rydme75 Alexandros enters...
17:09 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: At 16yo she was permitted to wear the habit of the domincan tertiaries. This was usually reserved for matrons or widows
17:09 TARA RAMESSES: why was she so self abusive, was it her spiritual training or just a personal idea?
17:10 Rydme75 Alexandros exits...
17:11 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: She saw the ascetism and self abuse as a means of "probation" ... she felt she was not worthy of Christ
17:11 TARA RAMESSES: thats sad
17:11 veltsos Lysias enters...
17:12 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: She continued with it until she had a vision in which Christ, Mary and the heavenly host conducting a ceremony placing a ring on her finger marrying her to Christ ... she then felt she could reenter society
17:14 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I think at this point, to see how she influenced the political and social life at the time you need to look at the political goings on in Italy
17:15 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: The Papacy had been at Avignon since 1305 ...
17:16 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: There was war between the Holy See and Florence ... mainly due to misgovernment of papal officals in Italy
17:17 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Catherine was torn between understanding the problems experienced in Italy and regarding war against the papacy as a mortal sin
17:17 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: she says "I am dying but cannot die"
17:19 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: In June 1376 she travelled as an ambassador from Florence to Avignon to attempt to find peace
17:19 TARA RAMESSES: what caused her to become so influential with the catholic church?
17:20 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I think, and I am not sure, that it was her visions and incredible personal charisma ... she had surrounded herself with disciples, many influential men and her fame had become wide spread
17:21 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: it's interesting ... most of the sources aren't clear as to why she came to prominence
17:21 TARA RAMESSES: i see....
17:21 lydia Servilius enters...
17:22 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: One of her goals in Avignon was to see the Pope return to Rome
17:24 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: she was granted an audience with Gregory and persuaded him that this was the best course of action
17:25 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: the papal court at Avignon was not particularly happy with this situation ... their positions of power would be erroded if the Pope were to leave
17:25 Torrey Philemon enters...
17:26 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: On September 13 1376 despite much controversy in Avignon, Gregory left for Rome
17:27 TARA RAMESSES: isn't it amazing how politics and religion so often become intertwined?
17:27 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: He was welcomed in Rome in the sense that he was the Religous figurehead but the inequities in Italy and mismanagement continued and so conflict continued
17:27TARA RAMESSES: hi torrey
17:28 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: absolutely ... this is what I find most interesting about Catherine as she attempted to remove herself from the political disputes, she simply became more embroiled in them
17:29 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Hi Torrey
17:29 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: The conflict in Florence itself was particularly bad at this point and Gregory asked Catherine to intervene there
17:30 TORREY PHILEMON: sorry i'm late. this strep throat is a real killer - had to sleep......just reading over your web page now in another window, Myrrhine.
17:31 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: She found herself in the middle of the 'tumult of the Ciompe' and an attempt was made on her life
17:33 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: she saw this as a chance to join her 'heavenly bridegroom' and when her assailants did not kill her she lamented that her sins had deprived her of the red rose of martyrdom
17:33 TORREY PHILEMON: What was the reason why an attempt was made on her life? What did her enemies have against here (the fact that she was on the other side politically?)
17:34 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: that was the thing ... she really wasn't on the other side so to speak ... she tried to stay out of internal politics. I think it was simply a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time
17:35 caitlin Morna enters...
17:35 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: there was some resentment over her interference in the relationships between the city and the papacy but this attack was part of an internal conflict as far as I can see
17:36 TARA RAMESSES: myrrhine, i hate to have to run but my broken arm is killing me here. i enjoyed the info on catherine so far and i will read more about it on your webpage. Torrey, missed you for rahab; hope your throat feels better soon!
17:36 Morgana Flavius enters...
17:36 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Thanks for staying as long as you did Tara
17:37 TARA RAMESSES: your welcome. have fun ya'll...
17:37 ldySiren Flavius enters...
17:37 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Catherine remained in the territory of Florence until word reached her that peace had been signed between Florence and the new Pope. She then returned to Siena and began work on her "dialogue"
17:38 lydia Servilius enters...
17:38 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Still, the politics continued ... the great schism had split the church
17:39 ldySiren Flavius exits...
17:40TORREY PHILEMON: Tara - I'll look forward to reading the transcript on Rahab....
17:40 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Catherine vehemently supported the Roman Pope Urban VI against the French Pope ClementVII
17:40 TORREY PHILEMON: Was the dialogue her writing, Myrrhine? I'm curious about what she wrote about. You said she was a highly respected writer.
17:41 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Yes, the dialogue was a book of her meditations and revelations
17:42 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Catherine could not actually write herself, she had never been educated, so the works were written by secretaries and disciples
17:43 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: The dialogue can be found here http://ccel.wheaton.edu/catherine/dialog/dialog.html
17:44 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: She also wrote thousands of letters to people in both positions of power and others simply looking for guidance
17:45 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: unfortunately most have been edited by copists or publisher because the language she used was often strong and condemnatory of the organisation of the church for example ...
17:46 TORREY PHILEMON: Have you read much of your writing, Myrrhine, and what do you think of it?
17:46 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: "To one whose name it is better not to write, because of certain words used in the letter" heads a copy of one letter published in the 14th century
17:48 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I have read some parts of it - I suffer from my lack of religious education, but I find the words she uses and her passion for what she is expressing quite startling.
17:49 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: One of the sources saw the dialogue as the mystical counterpart in prose of Dante's Divine Comedy
17:50 TORREY PHILEMON: I noticed you referred earlier to her ascetic practices that subdued the body. This seemed to be common during that time....and it bothers me. Was it because the flesh was viewed as evil and in opposition to the spirit? One had to put down the flesh in order to attain to a higher spirituality?
17:52 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: It disturbed me too ... I believe, and this is simply my opinion, that women in particular but also men felt that they had to suffer to be worthy of Christ there are many documented cases of women starving themselves or living solely on the communion to gain a closer relationship with God
17:53 TORREY PHILEMON: You wrote: "scourging herself with an iron chain and sleeping on a board. She embraced a life of asceticism first wearing a hair shirt then an iron-spiked girdle. "
17:53 Julia Manach enters...
17:54 TIKA YUPANQUI: enters...
17:54 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: And she was very young when doing this ... that in particular bothered me
17:54 JULIA MANACH: Hello!! *S*
17:55 TORREY PHILEMON: Hello Julia! Myrrhine's just finishing up Catherine of Sienna.
17:55 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: Hello Julia ... looks like I'm almost out of time ... are there any other questions before I hand the floor to Tika?
17:55MORGANA FLAVIUS: Hello, Julia!
17:55 CAITLIN MORNA: Well Simone de Beauvoir noticed some young girls ARE prone to this...not by their religion, just a 'phase' (Welcome, Julia!)
17:56 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Hi Julia! *S*
17:57 TORREY PHILEMON: I know that Catherine of Sienna's life was a great inspiration for Queen Christina during her last decade, when she became very religious, so it's interesting to learn more about her.
17:58 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I've done my best ... I hope it has helped!
17:58 JULIA MANACH: Hi everybody! *S* I didn't noticed that there were so many of us here! *S*
17:59 LYDIA SERVILIUS: You have done an *excellent* job Myrrhine! I am looking forward to reading the transcripts!
17:59 TORREY PHILEMON: Thanks, Myrrhine. Everyone who missed it, Myrrhine's Catherine page is at XXXX
18:00 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: thank you lydia ... thanks for putting the page up, I've just found some interesting pictures to add so I'll include them sometime this weekend ... check back if you're interested!
18:01 JULIA MANACH: Of course I will *S*
18:01 Nimue Cormac enters...
18:02 TIKA YUPANQUI: I'll look forward to reading the transcript from the beginning Myrrhine......and will start Artemisia in just a moment.
18:02 MYRRHINE PHILEMON: I must go, I'm still in my PJs *g* good luck Tika!
18:02 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Hi, Nimue!
18:03 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Bye Myrrhine! Hello Nimue!
Artemisia by TIKA YUPANQUI:
18:03TIKA YUPANQUI: I'm going to "talk" for about 10 minutes then take questions and dialogue....
18:03TIKA YUPANQUI: Artemisia was the most talented famous female artist of the Renaissance and Baroque era, but is completely neglected in most art history courses.
18:03 NIMUE CORMAC: I told you I'd be back
18:04TIKA YUPANQUI: She was born in the late 16th century in Italy and unlike most females, trained in painting because her father Orazio was an artist.
18:06TIKA YUPANQUI: After he taught her all he knew, he let her apprentice to Agostino Tassi, who raped her when she was 17 years old. As it turned out, Tassi was already a convicted sex criminal, and this was the 2nd or 3rd time he was convicted of rape.
18:06TIKA YUPANQUI: What resulted was one of the most notorious trials of the 17th century, of which the transcripts survive and have recently been published by Mary Garrard.
18:07TIKA YUPANQUI: During the trial, Artemisia was tortured, and Tassi presented many witnesses who attempted to prove that she and her sisters were whores.
18:07TIKA YUPANQUI: He was convicted, but the judge released him after a few months.... and after the destruction of Artemisia's reputation.
18:07TIKA YUPANQUI: Soon afterwards, Artemisia painted her most famous painting, Judith Slaying Holofernes - a dramatic portrayal of a woman beheading her male enemy.
18:08TIKA YUPANQUI: Right click on this link and choose open in a new window to see it: http://www.windweaver.com/artemisia/artemisia/art2.htm
18:09TIKA YUPANQUI: She later painted other remarkable Judith paintings, including Judith and her Maidservant, and many others of heroines - Bathsheba, Cleopatra, the Muse of History Clio.
18:09TIKA YUPANQUI: Artemisia was the first female painter to portray women as active heroines rather than passive objects of beauty who exist for the sake of men.
18:10TIKA YUPANQUI: She was one of the greatest baroque artisits, painting very realistic human bodies and female nudes using dramatic contrasts of light and dark.
18:11TIKA YUPANQUI: Notice how well she painted the human body - and how realistic her portrayals were - not idealized virgins! Here's another one of her Judith paintings - right click http://www.webwinds.com/artemisia/artemisia/art3.htm
18:12TIKA YUPANQUI: That's it for my monologue! Now we can dialogue.....GRIN!
18:13 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Very interesting Tika! Why do you assume that she is not mentioned by art historians of the past?
18:14 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Tika, I've read in your well done page about Artemisia that she had trouble to find male models for her paintings, because she was a woman. Why was it so important to have models who would pose in the nude for a painter?
18:14 Julia Manach enters...
18:14TIKA YUPANQUI: Good question, Lydia! In my research I discovered about eight other marvelous female painters of the Renaissance that aren't mentioned either.
18:15TIKA YUPANQUI: But also, if you consider that art historians were men and her best paintings are of a woman killing a man, you can imagine that art historians weren't very comfortable with it. In fact it was hidden away in the archives of museums for many years.
18:15 NIMUE CORMAC: I don't thinkl I've heard of anmy woman artists of that time
18:16 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes I see what you mean about her realistic approach to the human form! It almost appears that the Judith in the second portrait suffers from a goiter? See the neck? That would not be uncommon in her time!
18:16TIKA YUPANQUI: Morgana, painters only needed NUDE models if they were going to paint nudes, and women weren't allowed to do so. But beyond this, an unmarried woman wasn't even allowed to be alone in a room with a man who wasn't her relative. So painting men at all was hard....
18:16 JULIA MANACH: Morgana.. I paint myself, I had nude lessons in a Art School... the work of painting is completely different if you have models or not...
18:17 Gaia Marius enters...
18:17 lydia Servilius enters...
18:18TIKA YUPANQUI: Julia, are you saying that it's hard to paint the human body without models....? (Fascinating Lydia about goiter! Her neck does look strange. Like Caravaggio, who most influenced her, Artemisia was not into idealized portraits....)
18:19 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Yes, and I am arriving to the conclusion that painting religious or mythological scenes was the most relevant work a painter could do. Since those themes required nude personages in the scene, I guess that's why painters would try so hard to find models who would pose in the nude, rather than clothed.
18:19 NIMUE CORMAC: Without models its hard to get the shadings right I would think
18:20 LYDIA SERVILIUS: And the movement of muscle, etc!
18:21TIKA YUPANQUI: If any of you saw the movie, you'd be aware that it focused on Artemisia's obsession with painting male nudes especially male genitals. This was NOT true. She NEVER painted male nudes and didn't have nude males for models.
18:21 JULIA MANACH: working with models and no models is a compltely different work... and an artist of the status of Artemisia surely needed.. now some painters work with photos.. but there were no photos at that time, remember? still, some painters are against using photo
18:22 MORGANA FLAVIUS: There's certainly no question as to the need for models, but why was it so important that they would pose unclothed.
18:23 LYDIA SERVILIUS: It would appear Tika that the producers were ill informed! Julia, I feel that there is no replacing the REAL thing! *S*
18:23 MORGANA FLAVIUS: In her famous Judith slaying Holofernes, the man has drapes around his body.
18:24TIKA YUPANQUI: I imagine they needed to pose unclothed only if one was painting nudes.
18:24 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I went to art school in NYC for 2 years and that is one of the first courses I had to take! Nude drawing!
18:24 LYDIA SERVILIUS: You need to understand the human form, before you can understand it clothed.
18:24 MORGANA FLAVIUS: That's striking too, Tika. Why a XX century movie would still portray a woman painter as a person obsessed for erotic images...
18:24TIKA YUPANQUI: For her painting Susannah and her Elders, which she did when she was about 16 - before the rape - she had a nude female model. I only show the upper half of it here. http://www.webwinds.com/artemisia/art.htm
18:24 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Gaia, I had to leave and come back in!
18:24 Jullilla Marius enters...
18:25 NIMUE CORMAC: I would imagine its a basic. like knowing the foundation under all the clothes
18:26 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes, like in medicine learning Anatomy and Physiology! *S*
18:26 JULIA MANACH: I also must add that I paint for more then 15 years, I know some about History of Art... and I don't know if it is my fault or what, but I never about Artemisia until now...
18:28TIKA YUPANQUI: Gloria Steinem and several other feminists have protested about the movie. It showed Artemisia as virtually seducing her rapist (showing him all her drawingss of male genitals), and portrayed him as a devoted lover. And her sexuality and eroticism was the focus, not her painting.
18:29 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Well it is a known fact *unfortunetly* that SMUT sells!
18:29 Gaia Marius exits...
18:30 NIMUE CORMAC: What about the trial? Didn't she have witnesses on her side?
18:30 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Such a shame that such a talented artist was lost to us! I can honestly say that I do not blame her for the paintings she did! 17, what an impressionable age!
18:30TIKA YUPANQUI: One thing about the Susannah and her Elders painting which was incredible is that she painted it at age 16 before the Rape. And the story is about two Church elders attempting to rape a girl when they find her nude bathing.
18:31 LYDIA SERVILIUS: And thanks for enlightening us to her, Tika!
18:31 Gaia Marius enters...
18:31 NIMUE CORMAC: Its a lucky thing she was an artist. If not she may have been arrested for murder.
18:32TIKA YUPANQUI: Yes Nimue she did have witnesses on her side, who substantiated her virginity and her innocence. But Tassi apparently bought off a lot of witnesses, who made up stories about how she and her sisters were whores.
18:33 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Hi Gaia! The story of Artemesia is an interesting one!
18:33TIKA YUPANQUI: No, Gaia, it's only been half an hour. Not done yet....
18:33 MORGANA FLAVIUS: I guess Susanah was not a virgin, Tika, she was a married woman, was she not? Still, we can feel how threatened she feels!
18:33 NIMUE CORMAC: Do you think the painting was a cathartic experience. In her art she could kill him over and over and over and.....
18:34 GAIA MARIUS: Good keep going!!!
18:34TIKA YUPANQUI: Yes, that's right, in the Susannah story, Susannah wasn't a girl, she was married and was bathing when her husband was away and the elders came after her....
18:35 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Yes, Nimue, I think she used her painting as a cathartic means to release her feelings towards the man that raped her.
18:35TIKA YUPANQUI: Nimue, I really think that choosing the Judith and Holofernes theme right after the rape was a cathartic experience. It wasn't just that she was raped....it's that her sexuality was also dragged through the mud publicly. The trial was the major trial of the decade.... a kind of Monica Lewinsky situation in regard to publicity....
18:36 Nimue Cormac enters...
18:37TIKA YUPANQUI: She had to undergo an examination in regard to whether or not she was a virgin, and the results were broadcast everywhere. And stories were made up about the sexual activities. In fact some were so ludicrous that the judge (I read the transcripts, which are fascinating) had to stop everything and ask Tassi to stop making up such outrageous lies! He claimed that her father ran a bordello, and NOBODY believed that....
18:37 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Tika, what did her father do and feel about all of this?
18:37 GAIA MARIUS: One of the gratifying things about history is that it continues to repeat itself which is a grounding in and of itself.
18:38TIKA YUPANQUI: Lydia, the background on her father isn't clear. Tassi was his colleague - they painted frescoes together - and he was outraged not only that his daughter was raped, but also that his own friend/colleague betrayed him. So he brought the rape charges.
18:39TIKA YUPANQUI: Honor was a big thing, and it was expected that Tassi would marry Artemisia. In fact he promised to marry her from the start but didn't follow through. It turned out he was already married.
18:40 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Now you said that he had a history of sexual crimes, I wonder if her father knew of this prior to the apprenticeship arrangements
18:40TIKA YUPANQUI: But on a more positive note, once she moved to Florence after the trial, she started attracting rich and famous patrons, including the Medicis, and became a respected and wellpaid painter .....She WAS recognized in her own time.
18:40 Lucrecius Flavius enters...
18:40 NIMUE CORMAC: That brings up an interesting question. If her father brought the charges.....Could a woman bring rape charges on a man?
18:41 JULIA MANACH: Hi Luc!! *S*
18:41 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Good question Nimue
18:41TIKA YUPANQUI: Apparently his history was not known until the trial...including the fact that he was married but his wife had mysteriously disappeared, and people believed he had her killed, since he had paid bandits to do so! He also had raped his first wife and his sister-in-law. But this wasn't known initially.
18:41TIKA YUPANQUI: Don't know Nimue if woman could bring up rape charges. I imagine so, in the Renaissance and after.
18:42 GAIA MARIUS: But the view point probably wasn't all that enlightened. I'm sure most in power believed that a woman brought that kind of behavior onto herself
18:43 MORGANA FLAVIUS: An interesting comment I found about the painting "Inclinazione", painted by Artemisia for Michelangelo's "Casa Buonarroti" is that the original painting portrayed a nude woman and that some decades later, a descendant of Michelangelo the Young had another painter cover it with moralistic drapery. Why other paintings didn't deserve the same "moralistic modification"?
18:43TIKA YUPANQUI: One thing about her art.....The first half of her life was the Baroque era, when art was very dramatic and naturalistic. The second half of her life, Artemisia's paintings were calmer, more idealized....and in my opinion not nearly as good.
18:43 caitlin Morna enters...
18:44 GAIA MARIUS: Many of Michaelangelo's painters were painted over, including those in the sistine chapel
18:44GAIA MARIUS: I mean subjects in the paintings, not the painters!!!
18:44 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I would imagine that her work reflected her inner turmoil and therefore is more moving
18:44TIKA YUPANQUI: Morgana, somehow or other I missed that information about Inclinazione being covered over.....There seemed to be different moralistic times in history in which nudes were covered over....
18:45TIKA YUPANQUI: But you have to realize that she was entirely dependent upon patrons and had to paint what they wanted. She had to move several times to find new patrons, and of course most male patrons didn't want to pay her for pictures like Judith beheading Holofernes. They weren't about to hang paintings like that in their bedrooms and ballrooms!
18:46 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Good point Tika
18:46 NIMUE CORMAC: The true emtion coming through.
18:46 TORREY PHILEMON: Did any of you see the movie? It came out on video a few weeks ago. If you didn't know the real story, you'd probably like it - it's fairly well done.
18:47 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Oh, right. I had forgotten that. The paintings I saw in the Sistine Chapel were "freed" from the moralistic re-makings. And they are wonderful!
18:48TIKA YUPANQUI: There's a web site devoted to exposing the dishonesty of the movie... by Gloria Steinem and Mary Garrard. Garrard wrote the book on Artemisia with the court transcripts.
18:49 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Yes, I saw that info about Inclinazione in the Buonarroti link. It seems that not only society itself had some prejudices, but also the artists themselves would agree to "moralize" some paintings...
18:49 Jullilla Marius exits...
18:49 LYDIA SERVILIUS: It is a shame that people are being misinformed about her character even today!
18:50TIKA YUPANQUI: It amazes me that the writer and director was FEMALE. I don't know why she couldn't have made as good a movie or better using the REAL story. But it wouldn't have been a love story.
18:51 Nimue Cormac enters...
18:51 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Another thing that calls my attention in Artemisia is the ups and downs of her acceptance as an artist in the XVII century Europe. While she enjoyed some degree of recognition of her art, when she died she was again attacked for the "liberal" life she lived.
18:51 TORREY PHILEMON: Nonetheless it could have been a movie about how a woman artist who is raped and publicly humiliated goes on to do great paintings, and turns the emotional turmoil into great art (shades of Philomela, Morgana and Nimue!)
18:52TIKA YUPANQUI: That's interesting, Morgana. I haven't seen much on her reputation after she died. You'll have to tell me/us where you read that.
18:53 JULIA MANACH: Sorry, I'm having trouble following this chat.. the all thing keeps swinging *sigh*
18:53TIKA YUPANQUI: Her paintings did make men uncomfortable! They weren't beautiful passive nude virgins existing for the sake of a man. They made statements about female roles which some considered radical.
18:54 TORREY PHILEMON: Julia, you can change the refresh rate on the left side - usually. Sometimes it doesn't work. It's at the bottom of the left panel.
18:54 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Right, I would say that Artemisia had the "Philomela" approach to psychological and physical degradation.
18:54 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I just thought of something....perhaps this will explain the director? Even artists, such as directors, have to answer to patrons, producers!
18:55 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Actually, Tika, I read about Artemisia's death and the derogatory epitaphs about her in your own Artemisia page! *LOL*
18:56 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Great explanation, lydia! Even today artists have to accommodate their art to the taste of their public or their "mecenas".
18:56TIKA YUPANQUI: You're right, Lydia. Even filmmakers. And having written a screenplay myself which was classified as a "woman's movie" I learned that the movies are made for men, not women. If they don't appeal to men, they don't sell - especially internationally. So movies about rapists aren't likely to earn big dollars. Good point.
18:57TIKA YUPANQUI: Yes Morgana, all I know about right after her death are the derogatory epitaphs written about her.
18:57 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Apparently she died poor too...
18:57TIKA YUPANQUI: BTW here's a course page on female Renaissance artists http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/equity/ac4.htm
18:58TIKA YUPANQUI: And another: http://www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/sister/Renaissance.html
18:58TIKA YUPANQUI: More links to Renaissance women artists on my Artemisia and Veronica Franco link page http://www.windweaver.com/as/index.htm
18:58TIKA YUPANQUI: I hope to do Veronica Franco next.....
18:59 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Perhaps her life was more liberal than most, but unfortunetly they did not know about the repercussions of rape and the scandal that followed on a young soul, as we do today! Perhaps that was a result of her lifes experiences?
18:59 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Oh, Tika! Please do Veronica too! She's a wonderful woman too!
19:00 TORREY PHILEMON: Unfortunately though lydia, women who go to court due to rape are still publicly traumatized today, just as they were back then....though Artemisia was tortured during the trial to prove she was telling the truth.
19:01 NIMUE CORMAC: things never really change .....do they?
19:01TIKA YUPANQUI: anyway, thank you all so much for participating.
19:01 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I agree! Things have not changed that much over the years , if at all!
19:01 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Do you know how she was tortured, Tika?
19:02 JULIA MANACH: Well, Tika, I wish we could use at the Publisher House where I work your article about Artemisia for our Encyclopedia... but we are working with portuguese authors...
19:02 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Thank you Tika/ Torrey! *S*
19:02TIKA YUPANQUI: Thumbscrews, cords around her thumbs and fingers pulled tight. The form of torture was called the sibille. Remember she was an artist. This kind of torture damaged her HANDS.
19:03 NIMUE CORMAC: To an artist???
19:04 NIMUE CORMAC: I'll see you all tomorrow. Same time....same place
19:04 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Yuck! That must have hurt! Well thank you Tika for bringing such an interesting woman/artist to our attention!
19:04 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Oh dear! What brutality!
19:05 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Well, I must go now. I hope I will be able to participate again tomorrow! Bye all!
19:05 TORREY PHILEMON : Tomorrow we start with Lydia Servilius at noon on Cleopatra! And also tomorrow there are several shows on The Real Cleopatra in the evening.
19:06 TORREY PHILEMON: Bye Morgana.
19:06 LUCRECIUS FLAVIUS: yes, i do agree with you in a sense, but i find women haven't improved much in their association with one another, and this is part of the big conflict between man and woman.
19:07 GAIA MARIUS: Bye you guys and thanks for the lively talk!!!
19:07 Morgana Flavius exits...
19:07 JULIA MANACH: Bye everybody!!!!! Thank you Tika *S*
19:07TIKA YUPANQUI: Hmm. Lucrecius.... A male in our midst! What do you think hasn't improved?
19:08 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Lucrecius, do you mean relations between woman/woman or woman/man?
19:08 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Bye Gaia! *S*
19:08TORREY PHILEMON: Bye Gaia and Julia! Glad you came.
19:08 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Bye Julia! *S*
19:09 LUCRECIUS FLAVIUS: both of them, woman man when they are our sons specially or woman woman when we like the same man for example... by the way only my name is masculine i am a woman also.
19:09 GAIA MARIUS: Great job Tika!!!!
19:09 Gaia Marius exits...
19:10 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I think that in general Lucrecius, we need to understand all humans better! And treat each other with respect! *S*
19:11TIKA YUPANQUI: Glad to know you're female, L, though men aren't banned here.....
19:12TIKA YUPANQUI: My sense is that some women very good relations with other women now as in the past and others don't. Some women ALWAYS put men first.
19:12LUCRECIUS FLAVIUS: yes, i dreamed of the day when man can understand this kind of conversation and specially this problematic... even though there are some that really do... Apiladey i think is one who tries hard to understand woman... *s*
19:13 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes I agree Tika!
19:13 TORREY PHILEMON: I look forward to your talk, Lydia, since I'm really interested in Cleopatra myself....Sometime I want to read the Memoirs novel. Have you read it?
19:14 LYDIA SERVILIUS: No Torrey, but I highly recommend Michael Grants Cleopatra! Very good research!
19:14 caitlin Morna enters...
19:15 LYDIA SERVILIUS: And thanks! I do hope that I do her story justice!
19:15 LYDIA SERVILIUS: I do hope to read it! Belay recommended it to me some time ago!
19:16TORREY PHILEMON: Did Michael Grant write other historical novels? The name is familiar.
19:19 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Yes, he has written novels on many different historical figures and events! He is a scholor who has held achedemic posts in Trinity, Queens University, Khartoum, and Edinborough University! He has written about Julius Caesar, Nero to name a few!
19:22 TORREY PHILEMON: Hmm, will have to check out Grant.....Going to go now....BTW, Lydia, can you use sitewide grams? You can send a message about your talk before it starts....I'd do so but I've used up mine.
19:24 LYDIA SERVILIUS: Great idea Tika! I have not used mine, as I have not had anything important to say! BTW I made an announcement in Historea Romea about the celbration!
19:26 LYDIA SERVILIUS: See you tomorrow!
BACK TO CELEBRATION OF WOMEN PAGE
TO Tracy's ANCIENT SITES pages
About Our Celebration:
The original idea for a Celebration of Women at Ancient Sites was first expressed several months ago by Claudilla Caecilius, who was inspired by a suggestion from Belay Fabius. At the time, Claudilla posted this poem Phenomenal Woman by Maya Angelou to celebrate Women's History month, and to awaken interest in our creating this Celebration of Women.
The women of Ancient Sites are not only celebrating notable women of antiquity and the recent past this weekend; they are also celebrating themselves, and their relationships to each other - as learners, teachers, friends, helpers, chat participants, and creators here of our marvelous educational Ancient Sites community.