Celebration of Women
Mar. 13, 1999
page one
Informal Gathering

11:56 TORREY PHILEMON: Informal gathering, introductions to the talks, open chat at noon preceding the Celebration of Women chats which start at noon.
11:57 TORREY PHILEMON: Livia talk at  noon, Cornellia's page at XXXXX
11:59 NIMUE CORMAC: Hi everyone
12:00 TORREY PHILEMON: Everyone Nimue is you and me!
12:00 Louisa Agis enters...
12:02 LOUISA AGIS: Now there are three!  *S*
12:04 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Louisa. This is just an informal gathering before the seminars start.
12:04 LOUISA AGIS: Thank you Torrey.  That is why I decided to stop  in.  Hello, Nimue
12:05 NIMUE CORMAC: My chat screen isn't working right. I may leave and come back a lot but I'm still here
12:07 TORREY PHILEMON: I'm afraid I'm not likely to be a great facilitator today as I've strep throat and a high fever and am about to return to bed......but I suspect that  seminar leaders will do fine.....
12:08 LOUISA AGIS: Oh, goodness...I am just recovering myself...
12:08 LOUISA AGIS: I have heard much about the Celebration, so when I got your site gram Torrey, I thought I'd stop in...
12:08 TORREY PHILEMON: At least here we don't have to talk aloud!
12:09 LOUISA AGIS: True, my voice is still shot...
12:09 TORREY PHILEMON: Louisa, have you check out some of the web pages? http://www.windweaver.com/as/index.htm/women/celebration2.htm 
12:10 LOUISA AGIS: Yes, I went to yours before I came here to see the schedule and such...
12:11 Nimue Cormac enters...
TORREY PHILEMON: Hello again Nimue! Why don't you write a sentence or two about who Sister Kenny is? It would remain here on this page for those who come later.
12:14 LOUISA AGIS: I'll return soon...I'm going to check out some more of the web pages for the celebration...
12:15 NIMUE CORMAC: OK. Sister Elizabeth Kenny was an Australian nurse who treated children with polio. Her methods were not approved by the doctors at the time but she fought on anyway.
12:15 Ivy Philippos enters...
12:15 Sadie VanGeldre enters...
NIMUE CORMAC: She had great success, which irritated the doctors even more.
12:16 LOUISA AGIS: Hello, Ivy and Sadie!
12:16SADIE VANGELDRE: hello everyone
12:16 IVY PHILIPPOS: why are you guys talking about Australis?
12:16 NIMUE CORMAC: The women I chose was an Australian
12:17 IVY PHILLIPOS: The woman you chose?
12:17 TORREY PHILEMON: Those who are presenting seminars are introducing the women they'll be speaking about....Nimue will be talking on Sister Kenny.
12:18 TORREY PHILEMON: Celebration of Women chat schedule and links to the web pages at http://www.windweaver.com/as/index.htm/women/celebration2.htm
12:19 TORREY PHILEMON: Cornellia Cornelius will be presenting Livia at 1pm.
12:19 TORREY PHILEMON: For those who aren't clear, the Athens chat room is dedicated to our Celebration of Women conference all Saturday and Sunday this weekend!
(next section omitted because not relevant to Celebration)
12:37 Cornellia Cornelius enters...
LOUISA AGIS: HEllo, Cornellia!
12:38 TORREY PHILEMON: Yes welcome Ibero Solon! I guess we can figure out Spain from Ibero (doesn't Iberian mean Spanish?)
12:38 TORREY PHILEMON: Cornellia is our first speaker, who will speak on Livia at 1pm....Her page is at XX
12:38 IVY PHILIPPOS: Well I thik Nottingham is bigger.....Hi Cornellia
12:39 NIMUE CORMAC: Sorry...Welcome Ibero
12:39CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Hello all.  I do hope you will stay for my discussion on Livia.
12:40 TORREY PHILEMON: Cornellia, why don't you entice us all with a sentence or two about Livia now?
12:41CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I would be glad to.  Most of us grew up on the Graves portrayal of Livia...the scheming woman who is reputed to have poisoned half of Rome.  However, this isn't based on fact.
12:42 IVY PHILIPPOS: I gotta go.Bye everyone!Hope to talk later Louisa!
12:42 LOUISA AGIS: Bye, Ivy...take care!
12:43 NIMUE CORMAC: your page on her was almost the opposite of the Graves portrayal
12:45CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes it was....to be honest I grew up with the same idea, but was surprised to find her different.
12:45 Morgana Flavius enters...
TORREY PHILEMON: Actually Cornellia I don't think most people learn about her at all. Unfortunately most of us don't get most exposure to Roman history....at least in U.S. public schools!
12:46 LOUISA AGIS: Hello, Morgana
12:47 TORREY PHILEMON: Hello Morgana!
12:47CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: So very true and what we do learn is dates and the men
12:48 Ibero Solon enters...
NIMUE CORMAC: Dates and wars. What else is there in history class?
12:49 TORREY PHILEMON: I was saying to someone yesterday that what we study as history in U.S. public schools is the political and military history of white U.S. Protestant upper middle class men!
12:50 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Cornellia, I am one of those who grew up on Graves portrayal of Livia. And by reading your page, I found out that she might have been a totally different person.
12:51 Tara Ramesses enters...
LOUISA AGIS: Hello, Tara
12:51TARA RAMESES: hello everyone
12:52CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: To be honest, Roman history was written by men and they were very suspicious of strong women
12:52 TORREY PHILEMON: Hey Tara. Why don't you say a few words on the women you're going to be talking about. Tara's doing TWO - Rahab and Georgia O'Keefe (what a difference!)
12:52TARA RAMESES: sorry i am late... what are we talking about here?
12:53 NIMUE CORMAC: The whole idea of women having a partin history is foriegn to most teachers
12:53 TORREY PHILEMON: Cornellia was just giving a preliminary intro to Livia whom she's talking about at 1pm
12:53 LOUISA AGIS: That is so true and MOST unfortunate.
12:54TARA RAMESES: well, rahab is a very interesting biblical character.... large faith hero.
12:56 MORGANA FLAVIUS: Sorry, ladies, but I have to leave for a while. Will be back in 30-40 minutes (I hope!)
12:56TARA RAMESES: georgia o'keeffe is a ground-breaker in the artworld and was talented in different areas of art... abstract, realism, etc...
12:56 TORREY PHILEMON: see you later Morgana!
12:56 NIMUE CORMAC: Torry, Why don't you introduce us to Queen Christina before we star with the talks?
12:56 TARA RAMESES: bye morgana, see ya later
12:57 Morgana Flavius exits...
TORREY PHILEMON: it will be interesting to hear why you chose those two women....why everyone chose the woman they chose. 
12:59 TORREY PHILEMON: Queen Christina was 17th century queen of Sweden who abdicated the throne at an early age, partly to convert to Catholicism. She was then an outrageous character, a patron of the arts and promoter of religious freedom. There's a Greta Garbo film about her but it's not   accurate.
13:00 NIMUE CORMAC: I've seen the film but thats all I've ever heard of her. It will be interesting to hear more
13:01 TARA RAMESES: a lot of films are made about historical characters that are not very acurate

LIVIA led by Cornellia Cornelius
13:01 TORREY PHILEMON: Ok Cornellia why don't you go ahead with Livia....
13:02CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Livia was born in 58 BC and first married Tiberius Claudius Nero
13:02CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Who was an opponent of the young Octavian.
13:03CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: After giving birth to her first sone Tiberius, they were forced to flee Rome to the protection of Mark Antony
13:03 Ivy Philippos enters...
TARA RAMESES: you all excuse all my lower cases, broke arm here... so i'm kinda slow typing too......
13:05CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: By 38 BC, they'd returned to Rome, Livia was pregnant with her second son, divorcing Tiberius and marrying Octavian.
13:05CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Tara, I'm sorry to hear that!
13:05 TARA RAMESES: cornellia, was this during the time that mark antony was involved with cleopatra or is that later?
13:05CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: It's not known how Tiberius took this....but what could he say really?
13:06CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: It is about the time he was involved with her
13:07 NIMUE CORMAC: Was divorce really that easy for a woman in Rome?
13:07 TORREY PHILEMON: And what in the world led Livia to marry her husband's enemy Octavian?
13:07 TARA RAMESES: oh, okay, just trying to get the time line in my mind right.
13:08CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes ma'am, it was by the time of the late Republic.  All one had to do was announce the divorce and move out.
13:09CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Several reasons, one of which must have been love or at least a heady respect.  They were married for 53 years and every thing points to them being full partners
13:10 NIMUE CORMAC: That's quite a lot of power for that time isn't it. I mean women weren't the ones very often who could say "get lost"
13:10CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Of course he was the emperor or well on his way to becoming it by the time they married.
13:11CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes ma'am, it is quite a lot of power.  By the time of the late Republic, Roman women enjoyed rights unknown and unheard of in other parts of the ancient world.
13:12 TARA RAMESES: it sounded like a power move to me.... like she new he was up and coming and wanted to be apart of that.
13:12 NIMUE CORMAC: She and Octavian had no sons....Is that right?
13:13 NIMUE CORMAC: So how did she hold on to him? He really needed a son to succeed him.
13:13CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: It very well could have been a power move on Livia's part.  Though she was not the monster as painted in the Graves books, she was a very intelligent, savvy and strong woman.
13:14 NIMUE CORMAC: There must have een more to the marriage than power
13:15CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: They had no children at all.  He apparently was very pleased with her because they stayed together for 53 yeas and upon his death,  he asked her to remember their life together
13:15 TARA RAMESES: so she wanted someone as a partner whom she thought could bring her up in the world as well as match her intellectually, right
13:16 NIMUE CORMAC: If divorce was that easy, he must have really loved her to stay with her
13:17CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: That would be my guess, Tara.   Yes ma'am, Nimue, I would say he loved her and respected her.
13:17 NIMUE CORMAC: Or at least had a healthy respect for her
13:18 NIMUE CORMAC: He made her son his heir...right?
13:19 TORREY PHILEMON: Tara asked about timeline. Livia, here's a good timeline page....xxxx
13:19CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Now..we were all brought up to believe she poisoned half of Rome to secure the throne for Tiberius, her eldest sone.
13:20CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: In the end, Augustus adopted Tiberius and made him his heir
13:22 TARA RAMESES: i hate to run... but my arm is killing me, this computer chair isn't very therapeutic, he he. I've enjoyed the presentation very much, cornellia and hate to go... I'll try to check back next hour, okay
13:22CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: To be honest, Tiberius was the only one left and though Livia's hand in these deaths has long been suspected, to believe this, we'd have to believe the man who succeeded where Caesar failed, who created the Pax Romana which survived him by 200 years and Nero and Caligula somehow failed to realize that his closest advisor killed everyone.
13:22 Corwin Agis enters...
LOUISA AGIS: *Listening...reading actually*
13:22CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Take care Tara!  I hope you feel better.
13:23 TORREY PHILEMON: Do you think she poisoned anyone, Cornellia?
13:23 LOUISA AGIS: bye Tara.
13:23 LOUISA AGIS: Hello, my Husband...Welcome
13:23 TARA RAMESES: thanks... i'll be back after the pain meds kick in.... ha-ha-ha
13:23CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: To be honest, that is just tooooo big of a stretch.
13:24 CORWIN AGIS: *wondering if its ok that a man is here*
13:24 Tara Ramesses exits...
TORREY PHILEMON: Hope you feel better Tara....
13:24 CORWIN AGIS: Hello my love... *iss*
13:24 NIMUE CORMAC: How much say did she have in the runningof the governmet?
13:24 Bret Volumnius enters...
TORREY PHILEMON: Men are indeed welcome (as long as they're respectful of women!)
13:25CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: To be honest, there is no proof that she ever did.  However, she couldn't have been upset to find her son the only thing closest to an heir left.
13:25 CORWIN AGIS: *Hmmm losing letters &minding my tongue and listening*
13:25 LOUISA AGIS: Hello, Bret.
13:25CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She did work tirelessly on her son's behalf.
13:25 CORWIN AGIS: *Hmmm losing letters &minding my tongue and listening*
13:25 NIMUE CORMAC: Was she an ancient Hillary? It sounds like she was a politically savvy woman
13:26CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She was Augustus's closest advisor...however, she always maintained the appearance of not being involved.
13:27 CORWIN AGIS: Torrey... no problem I have a deep respect for women... especially one.
13:27 LOUISA AGIS: Probably very smart in those days...
13:27 Nimue Cormac enters...
CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She was a very politically savvy woman.  It has been said that her influence may have stayed Sejanus' hand for he didn't make his move until her death.  I'd say she's a far stronger woman and a far more savvy political player than Hillary
13:28 LOUISA AGIS: *S*
13:28CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She was a smarter player than most of the men..
13:28 NIMUE CORMAC: At least she died an old woman
13:30CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: That she did...a very old woman having outlived everyone except her son Tiberius.
13:30 NIMUE CORMAC: What kind of relationship, if any, did she have with her children?
13:31CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: I'd say a love/hate relationship with Tiberius.  She loved her children, but was a strong willed and domineering woman.....something that Tiberius always resented.
13:31 TORREY PHILEMON: Just curious...if by any chance she HAD poisoned anyone so her son would be heir....was there a punishment for committing such an act? It seems as if various Roman leaders were always getting away with poisoning each other.....
13:32 Nimue Cormac enters...
CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes ma'am, murder was against the law in Rome....however poisoning is not an easy charge to prove...especially then.
13:34 NIMUE CORMAC: How do you prove he was poisened?
13:34 NIMUE CORMAC: No forensic medicine. Alot of poisons are hard to detect even now
13:35 Morgana Flavius enters...
CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: So very true...however, it's an easy thing to allege in rumors
13:36 NIMUE CORMAC: And sometimes rumor is stronger than truth
13:37CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Ah yes, the appearance of a impropriety is far worse than the actual deed.
13:39CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Livia was also the first woman ever granted a lictor by the Senate, though sources disagree as to whether or not she ever got one.
13:39 Louisa Agis enters...
LOUISA AGIS: A lictor?
13:40 NIMUE CORMAC: Pardon my ignorance of Roman histry , but what happened to her daughters?
13:41CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She was also voted an arch in her honor, something previously reserved for triumphant generals.  Tiberius never followed through with this and it was her grandson Claudius who finally rectified this and had her deified as "diva Augusta"
13:42CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes ma'am, lictors accompanied Roman officials...how important you were was determined by the number of lictors you were allowed.  They usually beat off the crowds....hehe
13:42 LOUISA AGIS: LOL...thank you...
13:42 Nimue Cormac enters...
CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: She had no daughters.  Augustus did have one, Julia, who was forced into a loveless marriage with Tiberius.  She was later exiled for her promiscuity.
13:43 TORREY PHILEMON: Ahh, that was the Julia associated also with Ovid's exile.....
13:44 Morgana Flavius exits...
CORWIN AGIS: *wondering if Louisa likes the ides of being a lictor*
13:44 NIMUE CORMAC: Just out of curiousity, what happened to promiscuous men?
13:44 TORREY PHILEMON: Cornellia and others, I see that the Augustan age timeline continues here XXXXX  It shows the dates of some of these events.....
13:45 LOUISA AGIS: No, Corwin...not for me...
13:46 CORWIN AGIS: **listening intently**
13:46CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: LOL....nothing happens to promiscuous men....other than their friends slap them on the back.  It has been said that Augustus was quite promiscuous even during his long marriage
13:47 LOUISA AGIS: The good ole double standards...
13:47 NIMUE CORMAC: It figures. LOL
13:47 CORWIN AGIS: Sheez... sounds like nothings changed in Rome...
13:47CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yep....especially then.  Any more questions?
13:48 TORREY PHILEMON: For those who haven't seen it, Cornellia's Livia page is at XXXX,
13:48 CORWIN AGIS: I have a question...
13:49 CORWIN AGIS: Has any ancient manuscripts survived written about or by Livia?
13:49 TORREY PHILEMON: (You can always right click on a link and choose open in new window so you don't close the chat window)
13:50CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Ovid, Virgil, Tacitus...all wrote something about Livia
13:51 CORWIN AGIS: Thank you...
13:51CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Though, to be honest, she did make them a wee bit uncomfortable.
13:51 Louisa Agis enters...
13:51 Marlee Manach enters...
TORREY PHILEMON: You said on your page that she was unconventional and that men were wary of her because of it. How was she unconventional? In wielding more power than most women did....?
13:53 TORREY PHILEMON: Welcome Marlee. Cornellia's finishing Livia now - then 1pm is Queen Liliuokalani of Hawaii.
13:53MARLEE MANACH: Sorry I am late....
13:54CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Yes ma'am, she was very obviously her husband's closest advisor and took an active role in public displays.  She had the right to sit with the Vestals in public performances, she had her own clients, she was involved in the dedications and commissioning of public buildings and actually interceded on behalf of provincial embassies
13:56CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: That's ok Marlee...I found my magic button
13:56 NIMUE CORMAC: Pardon my ignorance again, but what was so great about sitting with the Vestals?
13:57CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: They had the best seat in the house!!!!
13:57 TORREY PHILEMON: BTW transcripts of all these chats will remain available here, and links will be posted on the Celebration page.....
13:58 Marlee Manach enters...
CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: For the most part, folks, even the Senators, were crowded into there together...and they were open to the sky.
13:59MARLEE MANACH: *S*  Obviously you haven't been back yet,  ma'am.  !   I am glad those transcripts will remain.  *S*
14:00CORNELLIA CORNELIUS: Thank you for coming today and listening (reading)  I know I enjoyed it.
14:00 Marlee Manach enters...
NIMUE CORMAC: great job Cornellia!
14:02MARLEE MANACH: Thank you Cornellia!
14:02 LOUISA AGIS: Thank you Cornellia!!
14:02 caitlin Morna enters...
14:03 Polynesia Yupanqui enters...